Curse

Keure · Sep 17, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

The problem with pure protection builds and energy management is most energy management requires attribute points elsewhere, thus diluting the build. Offering of Blood and Energy Drain or solid staple energy management tools, both requiring about 9 to be effective.

Going from a 12/12 attribute distribution to going to a 10/10/11 (with a 10 in the energy management attribute of your choice) barely hurts your efficiency while maintaining high energy management in comparison to the pile of absolute crap that is P&H (if you continuously maintain it on two people it still sucks, maintaining it on one is absolutely abysmal - for more information read here and here).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

16 Prot
13 Divine Favor

Divine Boon
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Draw Conditions
Peace and Harmony {E}
Contemplation of Purity
Blessed Aura
Res of choice

Protection above maybe 10 doesn't give you all that much, and it's not worth running Divine Boon at 13 to give you a 16 in protection. DB is ideally run at 16 DF.

Contemplation of Purity does not mix with P&H/Blessed Aura.

Blessed Aura isn't doing much here either. You don't have Divine Spirit, or any of the really powerful monk enchantment elites. The only thing worth noting is the 7-8 second Guardian but that's doesn't make running Blessed Aura over a bunch of other utility stuff (like removals) that's not present in the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Who cares if you use Inspired Hex for energy gain, you are just gonna spend more energy healing off the newly applied hex that is immediately cast after you remove it.

You're looking at Inspired Hex the wrong way.

Inspired Hex is another energy management tool that happens to remove hexes.

Even if the hex is reapplied, you still get a bunch of energy that you wouldn't have if the hex wasn't removed in the first place through Inspired Hex.

Vexed Arcanist · Sep 18, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

Protection above maybe 10 doesn't give you all that much, and it's not worth running Divine Boon at 13 to give you a 16 in protection. DB is ideally run at 16 DF.

Sure it does, check the difference between Prot Spirit at 10 Prot and 16, or Guardian.

Quote:

Contemplation of Purity does not mix with P&H/Blessed Aura.

Sure it does, it removes hexes and conditions, strips enchantments that are stifiling your energy regeneration and HEALS you. You must not have tested this and just read the spells and decided "not a combo". Again, as I stated, in my testing it was an emergency cleanse and heal. It worked like a charm. Do I advocate YOU use it? No way. I merely reported I liked the way it worked, it is an unused skill. I have finished the game 4 times over, I have 2 monks, what else do I have left since I don't do GvG? I test skills, especially the disregarded ones. Many of which are disregarded with good cause, like P&H LOL.

Quote:

Blessed Aura isn't doing much here either. You don't have Divine Spirit, or any of the really powerful monk enchantment elites. The only thing worth noting is the 7-8 second Guardian but that's doesn't make running Blessed Aura over a bunch of other utility stuff (like removals) that's not present in the build.

Agreed, and again I merely was testing Blessed Aura, especially in light of the build at the begining of this thread. I also stated this in a previous post, it isn't worth it in a dboon spike prot build.

Quote:

You're looking at Inspired Hex the wrong way.

Inspired Hex is another energy management tool that happens to remove hexes.

Even if the hex is reapplied, you still get a bunch of energy that you wouldn't have if the hex wasn't removed in the first place through Inspired Hex.

No, actually I look at it exactly the way most people who use it do. I have a 20 Mesmer, it is stock on her spell bar. I made the point that in places like Grenth's the hex just gets reapplied so the energy you gained you have to expend in dealing with that hex. It has a 20 second cool down and this is why I do not like it.

Now, this is what I will use in Grenth's and Sorrow's Furnace, as a Protection build. It is NOT the same as the original post, it may not suit your play style, you may not like it, etc., but this is what I have decided is best for myself, if you care to try it, great!

Divine Boon
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Offering of Blood
Remove Hex (I eat crow here, explanation below)
Aegis (again, some crow eating but...)
Res of choice (Rebirth for me)

15 Protection
11 Divine Favor
10 Blood (could easily be 10 Inspiration)

I prefer a prot spike healer for myself. Guardian is 50% at 15 prot, down 2% from 16. I decided Aegis at the start of a very nasty battle is worth the 15 energy, and since I have OoB this is very doable. Rarely do I need it a second time in the same battle as a foe or 2 have died and I can spot use Guardian as needed. Remove Hex due to it's cheapness and it's fast recycle (7 seconds, 5 energy). It's not as fast as a Mend Ailment or Guardian to cast, which makes my eye flinch, but it is better, FOR ME, than a 20 second cool down. I decided after watching Mhenlo desperately trying to Healing Breeze everyone and the fact that RoF doesn't do anything vs. degen other than the dboon heal, I needed to remove hexes or deal with them some how. Offering of Blood because it works before, during and after a fight, nothing needed to drain from. If you like EDrain/Tap/Inspired Hex, go inspiration.

This is NOT for PvP. Do NOT use this for PvP. There are many, many different builds, I could post one of my enchantment builds, they work too, but this one is most comfortable in a 2 monk group in Grenth's and SF.

My apologies if I have seemed to hijack the thread, it coincided with my own week of testing and I tried out the original build and variations.

Keure · Sep 18, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Sure it does, check the difference between Prot Spirit at 10 Prot and 16, or Guardian.

Everything you do has an opportunity cost. Sure, Guardian is nice at 16 prot. Prot Spirit is completely usable at 10 prot but gets a decent duration increase at 16 (too bad I don't see it in the build so you aren't taking advantage of your 16 prot). However, your Divine Boon at lower levels of DF suffers because of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Sure it does, it removes hexes and conditions, strips enchantments that are stifiling your energy regeneration and HEALS you. You must not have tested this and just read the spells and decided "not a combo". Again, as I stated, in my testing it was an emergency cleanse and heal. It worked like a charm. Do I advocate YOU use it? No way. I merely reported I liked the way it worked, it is an unused skill. I have finished the game 4 times over, I have 2 monks, what else do I have left since I don't do GvG? I test skills, especially the disregarded ones. Many of which are disregarded with good cause, like P&H LOL.

I advocate good, efficient builds. Good, efficient builds help you do more for your team than bad inefficient builds.

You may prefer to use unused stuff but it doesn't change the fact that P&H sucks abysmally (did you even read the links or do the math?) - and even more so when you include Contemplation of Purity on your skill bar.

Contemplation of Purity ends P&H on use.

P&H is already crap for the amount of energy you get out of it when it runs its full duration (most elite energy management skills give at least 2x or 3x you get from P&H) - but it *has* to run its full duration in order for you to get the energy you want from it.

What happens when you use Contemplation of Purity, after, say, 30 seconds? After 30 seconds you got a net 5 energy from your elite energy management skill. Was it worth sacrificing your elite slot that would have gotten you 20+ more energy if you were running an actual energy management elite for some 70 or so HP of healing and a condition/hex removed?

Inspired Hex, that non-elite that you shun, gives more energy over time than P&H and doesn't get shafted by Contemplation Of Purity if you can find hexes to eliminate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

I made the point that in places like Grenth's the hex just gets reapplied so the energy you gained you have to expend in dealing with that hex. It has a 20 second cool down and this is why I do not like it.

Regardless of your beliefs and personal preferences this is concrete fact:

Use Inspired Hex at Insp 10: net gain 7 energy every 20 seconds (assuming there is a hex to remove).
Don't use Inspired Hex: net gain 0 energy.

You come out ahead in the energy game. You get 7 energy, for free, every 20 seconds, even if the hex removal is inconsequential.

Vexed Arcanist · Sep 18, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

Everything you do has an opportunity cost. Sure, Guardian is nice at 16 prot. Prot Spirit is completely usable at 10 prot but gets a decent duration increase at 16 (too bad I don't see it in the build so you aren't taking advantage of your 16 prot). However, your Divine Boon at lower levels of DF suffers because of it.

You made a general statement that high prot is inefficient. I gave you two basic spells to check your statement against. I don't use Prot Spirit in my build. A high Protection gives a much longer duration on Prot Spirit, that in itself is energy management. You don't have to recast a 10 energy spell....what, 5 seconds sooner? Energy management. Guardian: 40% block or 52%? Greater chance to block = less healing = energy management = efficient.

Quote:

I advocate good, efficient builds. Good, efficient builds help you do more for your team than bad inefficient builds.

You may prefer to use unused stuff but it doesn't change the fact that P&H sucks abysmally (did you even read the links or do the math?) - and even more so when you include Contemplation of Purity on your skill bar.

Testing is how you find good builds. I test with henchman, no one suffers but me. Stay on topic if you are going to respond to what I have been listing, otherwise you are simply distracting.

Quote:

P&H is already crap for the amount of energy you get out of it when it runs its full duration (most elite energy management skills give at least 2x or 3x you get from P&H) - but it *has* to run its full duration in order for you to get the energy you want from it.

What happens when you use Contemplation of Purity, after, say, 30 seconds? After 30 seconds you got a net 5 energy from your elite energy management skill. Was it worth sacrificing your elite slot that would have gotten you 20+ more energy if you were running an actual energy management elite for some 70 or so HP of healing and a condition/hex removed?

P&H has been on my junk list a LONG time. I have been using OoB for a LONG time. That doesn't mean I can't test P&H in a build. You are here arguing/debating about the norm vs. testing anything outside the norm. Perhaps you need a thread of your own? "My standard, everyone plays it, it takes no advantage of the issues in Grenth's and Sorrow's, prot build"?

Quote:

Inspired Hex, that non-elite that you shun, gives more energy over time than P&H and doesn't get shafted by Contemplation Of Purity if you can find hexes to eliminate.

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't shun anything. I stated I use Inspired Hex with my Mesmer. I gave legitimate arguement about it's cool down and the fact you immediate use that energy you gained to heal the replacing Hex immediately cast. You obviously have failed to test your theory in Grenth's.

Quote:

Regardless of your beliefs and personal preferences this is concrete fact:

Use Inspired Hex at Insp 10: net gain 7 energy every 20 seconds (assuming there is a hex to remove).
Don't use Inspired Hex: net gain 0 energy.

You come out ahead in the energy game. You get 7 energy, for free, every 20 seconds, even if the hex removal is inconsequential.

It is also a concrete fact Blessed Signet gives 3 energy per enchantmen maintained. With only 2 enchantments I can gain 6 energy. It recycles in 10 seconds. I don't use Blessed Signet either.

I won't be responding to your future comments as you are flamebaiting. Testing is what has been going on here. I have made comments in previous posts about various spells that you obviously disregard, facts that you try and through in the face of other spells I bring up I have tested. If you can't take what I say in whole you are just being argumentative and have no solid ground for debate.

Yamat · Sep 18, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

You made a general statement that high prot is inefficient. I gave you two basic spells to check your statement against. I don't use Prot Spirit in my build. A high Protection gives a much longer duration on Prot Spirit, that in itself is energy management. You don't have to recast a 10 energy spell....what, 5 seconds sooner? Energy management. Guardian: 40% block or 52%? Greater chance to block = less healing = energy management = efficient.

Valid points. I'd be interested though in understanding if having the higher DF with resulting higher spot heals is more efficient than having prot enchants last longer... have you done any testing there?

Your build is very close to mine, except I have higher DF over Prot, and run Inspiration (Inspired/Drain) instead of Blood. Because of the higher DF, I sometimes swap out Aegis for Signet of Devotion, but I do miss Aegis...

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 18, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

...but I do miss Aegis...

I'm quite fond of Aegis. I usually have a mixture of "spot-treatments" - like Reversal, DC etc, and "prophylactic-treatments" (for lack of a better term) like Aegis or SoR. This allows me to multitask since I can cast a "prophylactic" which does it's work on one or more members, while at the same time I'm administering "spot-treatments" to players who aren't covered by it or who need special attention.

For instance - one person in trouble might get SoR while I turn my attention to someone else with Reversal and/or DC etc...

Aegis is running in the background no matter what, provided I can afford the energy at the moment... In essence it's allowing me to do several things at the same time. It would be tougher for me to replace that with Guardian which competes with other "spot-treatments" for my attention.

Aegis is like "autopilot" for Guardian. I can turn on the "autopilot" so I can go tend to the passengers... ok it's a cheap airline without flight attendants.. but you get the picture.

Keure · Sep 18, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Xue, I apologize for hijacking your thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

You made a general statement that high prot is inefficient. I gave you two basic spells to check your statement against. I don't use Prot Spirit in my build. A high Protection gives a much longer duration on Prot Spirit, that in itself is energy management. You don't have to recast a 10 energy spell....what, 5 seconds sooner? Energy management. Guardian: 40% block or 52%? Greater chance to block = less healing = energy management = efficient.

With stuff like Healing Prayers you want really high healing because the healing is concrete and efficiency suffers otherwise. With Divine Boon you want it really high because a really high DF is the only way to make it worth running. With Protection Prayers you're paying for non-concrete benefits whose amount of damage prevention doesn't scale nearly as well as it does with the previous two.

Yes, it's true that having a prot 16 Guardian can save some energy (it has to innately or it would be tough to justify running).

But my argument the entire time is that it is worse in terms of efficiency to have a 16 prot + bad Divine Boon + bad energy management than it is to have 10 prot + good Divine Boon + good energy management. Math shows that this is the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Testing is how you find good builds. I test with henchman, no one suffers but me. Stay on topic if you are going to respond to what I have been listing, otherwise you are simply distracting.

P&H has been on my junk list a LONG time. I have been using OoB for a LONG time. That doesn't mean I can't test P&H in a build. You are here arguing/debating about the norm vs. testing anything outside the norm. Perhaps you need a thread of your own? "My standard, everyone plays it, it takes no advantage of the issues in Grenth's and Sorrow's, prot build"?

Standard builds are standard for a reason - they're good, useful and efficient.

There's a reason why it's outside the norm and no one uses it - it is simply worse than the options that are traditionally advocated.

You don't prove something's effectiveness through only testing - if by testing you beat whatever's in front of you doesn't mean that build is really effective, it only means that your build is better than the enemy's build, or that you are a more skilled player than the opposing side. Testing is even worse in PvE where the enemy groups don't adapt nor act intelligently.

You have to get yourself a theoretical base first through which you show the build's effectiveness in theory (look, on paper with this build two people can spike someone out in the span of a second. Look, on paper with this build this character has an extremely high energy regeneration rate with a minimal opportunity cost. Look, on paper with this build you can force the opponents to undergo a massive negative energy regeneration, meaning it can obliterate a certain type of build). And then you test it to make sure that you covered all the bases (crap, this one character requires way too much micro to be fully effective, crap, the enchantment-light environment means that this skill doesn't do as much as we thought it would).

You don't have that theoretical base. No amount of testing will get you a good build without it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't shun anything. I stated I use Inspired Hex with my Mesmer. I gave legitimate arguement about it's cool down

Your argument about cooldown:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

It has a 20 second cool down and this is why I do not like it.

You aren't giving anyone much information about your argument. Would the skill suddenly become really effective in your book if it gave you 1/4 the net energy, removes a hex 1/4th the time, and has a cooldown of 5 seconds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

and the fact you immediate use that energy you gained to heal the replacing Hex immediately cast.

So you have to spend some energy to deal with the hex. You have to deal with the hex *anyway* regardless of whether or not you use Inspired Hex, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

It is also a concrete fact Blessed Signet gives 3 energy per enchantmen maintained. With only 2 enchantments I can gain 6 energy. It recycles in 10 seconds. I don't use Blessed Signet either.

Invalid comparison. To get the energy with Blessed Signet you need to maintain more enchantments, which means that your innate energy regeneration goes down and you usually lose more skill slots for those enchantments. If hexes are thrown about as much as you say Inspired Hex is a 1-skill slot required free energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

I won't be responding to your future comments as you are flamebaiting. Testing is what has been going on here. I have made comments in previous posts about various spells that you obviously disregard, facts that you try and through in the face of other spells I bring up I have tested. If you can't take what I say in whole you are just being argumentative and have no solid ground for debate.

I'm arguing because I want to promote good effective builds, as good effective builds improve the quality of play as well as bring greater degrees of success to the player looking to succeed.

Statements like these don't help with this goal:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Peace and Harmony is good if you want to stay away from secondary profession energy management and all your spells target allies (thus no Aegis)

No, it isn't. There are many other monk elites that you could run that a) would save you more energy through healing more effectively and/or b) have much better utility than a not-even 1 pip of net energy regeneration would have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

low DF Divine Boon build

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexed Arcanist

Contemplation of Purity mixes well with P&H and Blessed Aura

Personal preference is personal preference but it's nothing more than that. When you go off into a serious forum throwing out stuff like this in a thread whose purpose is looking to make one's build good and efficient you can't expect not to have your flawed information picked apart.

Scaphism · Sep 19, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

I'm also an advocate for running Protection at less than max. However, here's a 2 attribute build I saw and liked.

Jelly's Blessed Aura monk

I believe the attributes are 14 DF (12+minor+hat) and 13 Prot (12+minor) but I might be wrong.

Since this is for PVE you can probably run one superior rune without any problems.

Keure · Sep 19, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Oh, I also like Jelly's build alot.

I think it was 12+4 DF, 12+1 Prot.

Some math for Yamat:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Valid points. I'd be interested though in understanding if having the higher DF with resulting higher spot heals is more efficient than having prot enchants last longer... have you done any testing there?

A 15 vs 11 DF: with Divine Boon, it's 70 + 48 = 118 for 15, and 58+35 = 93 for 11. This is a 25 HP difference per spell, applicable to all types of damage.

The following is applied with Divine Boon:

A 15 prot 11 DF vs 11 prot 15 DF: Guardian: depends on the enemy DPS. An additional 8% of the damage is blocked. Let's say two enemies each deal 300 damage over 6 seconds (Guardian duration) to their target. 600 damage * 8% = 48 damage. An additional 48 damage blocked per Guardian cast is OK; however, Guardian only blocks attack damage, not damage like any spell/hex/degen/attack buff. So you have to weigh the amount of damage taken per type in accordance to the enemies you're fighting.

A 15 prot 11 DF vs 11 prot 15 DF: RoF: depends on the frequency with which you block a hard hit. For hits over 80 damage (RoF 15), you get a (80-63)x2 = 34 damage advantage over RoF 15; however, the innate advantage of 25 HP (from DB DF 15) per 11 prot RoF reduces the advantage of this 15 prot RoF to 34-25 = 9 damage. The advantage goes down as you block less-hard hits; if you block a 75 damage hit with RoF, the 15 prot 11 DF RoF actually has a 1 HP disadvantage in comparison to the 11 prot 15 DF RoF ((75-63)x2 vs 25).
A hit 63 damage or less yields a 25 HP advantage for the 11 prot 15 DF RoF. So how often are you going to block really hard hits (>75 damage) with your RoF? To balance out the above 80 damage hits with those 63 damage and below you have to block 80 damage hits three times as often as you block those hits of 63 damage or below to break even. For hits between 63 and 80 damage you must block those 76 damage to 79 damage more than half the time you block those hits between 71 damage and 75 damage, inclusive, in order to make 15 prot DF 11 RoF better.

A 15 vs 11 prot: Mend Ailment: If you're healing 1 condition, you get a 25 HP advantage with 15 DF 11 prot vs 11 DF 15 prot. If you're healing 2 conditions, you get a 25-17 = 8 HP advantage with 15 DF 11 prot vs 11 DF 15 prot. If you're healing 3 conditions, you get a 34-25 = 9 HP advantage with 11 DF 15 prot vs 15 DF 11 prot.
So now you get the frequency at which you heal 3 conditions (or more) vs the frequency at which you heal 2 or less and compare.